Exit Planning: Financial Strategies with Kevin Brunner, Q Companies
This week, we sit down with Kevin Brunner, founder and owner of Q Companies, to explore essential financial strategies for business mergers, acquisitions, and tax planning. Kevin shares his journey from mowing lawns and trading penny stocks to becoming a financial advisor with a proven track record. Learn about the importance of early exit planning, proven financial strategies, and how Q Companies helps business owners achieve tax-efficient exits. Join us for insightful discussions on maximizing your business value and planning for a secure financial future.
About Kevin Brunner
Kevin’s entrepreneurial journey started at age 12, running a lawn-care business that quickly grew into managing crews and payroll before he could drive. By his 30s, Kevin had transitioned into trading options and futures, then became a financial advisor in 2004 after acquiring his advisor’s practice. A problem-solver at heart, he discovered innovative trust structures that allow business owners to defer taxes and preserve wealth during an exit. Since then, Kevin has built Q Companies into a trusted partner for entrepreneurs across industries, with a special focus on route-based businesses like FedEx contractors. His mission is to help business owners exit on their terms, maximize value, and secure long-term financial stability.
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Josh Gregory: [00:00:00] Welcome to Industry Insights with Route Consultant, your front row seat to the fast moving world of logistics and beyond. Each week, we bring you game changing insights, real world strategies and fresh perspectives to fuel smarter investments and build stronger businesses. Join us as we sit down with expert guests to explore emerging trends and pressing topics.
Across a wide range of industries. This is industry insights.
So today we have Kevin Brunner here as the founder and owner of Q Companies. Kevin is a financial advisor who has. Helped with business mergers and acquisitions. Mm-hmm. And, uh, all kinds of tax advice as well. You're helping your clients design strategies to help minimize that tax burden, preserve wealth, and really help make people who are entrepreneurs able to actually exit those businesses that they've built.
So, Kevin, welcome to the studio. Thanks for being here. Thank
Kevin Brunner: you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for having me.
Josh Gregory: So, I, I gave my quick synopsis, but if you were to [00:01:00] give, you know, an elevator pitch the first time you're meeting somebody, uh, and you're trying to explain. Who Q Companies is? What would you say?
Kevin Brunner: Well, you know, every April you meet with your CPA and you see how much taxes you owe.
Yeah. And you're shocked we solved that problem. Okay, well that's easy. I'll take that. Yeah, maybe I'll call you in April. Okay, perfect. Well, no, you gotta call me before December 31st. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before it actually is the time. Yeah. Yeah. Give you some times because after December
Josh Gregory: 31st, whatever happened, happened.
Okay. You're right. Yeah. Okay. So call you early, I think. And I think that might be a theme for today. Yeah. So, uh, now I know. There's a lot of things that Q Companies does, but before we get into all of that, you know, if we're to take a step back, how did you even get into the financial advising space?
Kevin Brunner: I started mowing lawns and buying penny stocks with my grandmother when I was 12.
Okay.
Josh Gregory: And she and your grandmother was the one who was advising you on which
Kevin Brunner: Penny stocks to buy or, yes. Yes. And she, and we would actually, um, get on the phone and order a prospectus and it would come in the mail, you know, [00:02:00] we'd decide what to buy. And she had been a bookkeeper for James Cash. Penny JC Penney, the man itself, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So she was a brilliant lady, but she looked exactly like Aunt B and Mayberry. But she read the Wall Street Journal every day. Mm-hmm. And then my grandfather would take me out, this, this is, my dad's parents would take me out, um, when he would do land deals. So he would buy vacant land and then over time subdivide it.
And he knew what to buy. 'cause he knew when the county or city was selling bonds for the utilities to go in, in advance, then he would go in and buy up those. He, and he called it land banking. So I grew up with this in my blood. Mm-hmm. You know, all the way back from a meeting, grandpa asking you questions in the truck.
He drove the same 65 Chevy. Till the day he passed. Right. Any of those penny stocks work out for you? Um, some of them worked out very, very well. Good. Um, I personally have beaten the S&P every year of my life. Since you were what, 12? Yes. Since 1978. In my own finances, I have no negative years. Hey, that is, so when advisors, there's few
Josh Gregory: people who can say that.
Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: Well, when advisors say, well, you can't beat the market. Well, [00:03:00] maybe you can't. There's thousands of people that beat the market every year. Mm-hmm. So, but you have to. You have to think ahead. You have to take out emotion, which is the hardest part. Yeah. Right. So we make a lot of emotional decisions.
Business owners make emotional decisions and then use logic to justify the emotional decision. So you have to eliminate those things. So, um, so I, I, it's not me, it was, these things were taught to me, the installment cell trust that we used to help people exit. That was taught to me by two tax attorneys from Ernst and Young.
In, in 2004. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I, I, I write books on these things, podcast on these things. I'm published on these things. Um, model Q is the 21st century version of a 1970 EF Hutton training manual. Now, EF Hutton was a legend. Mm-hmm. His strategies work better today than they did in 1970 because the markets and the financial instruments are more efficient today than they were then.[00:04:00]
So all these things I'm talking to you about were taught to me. I adapted a few things. Yeah. But I can't take credit. I, I really can't take credit for it. Um, I'm very blessed to have some of the mentors and people that I've had.
Josh Gregory: I think you can take credit at least though, for being able to synthesize it and.
Apply it to a new day and, and wow. For many people that's not an easy skill or an easy task. And obviously you've done well with it. So I do think there's, there's definitely credit to be given. Yeah. But I think it's a valuable, you know, kind of topic and lesson just to think about that. These are not new strategies.
This is something No. That you, that was learned. This isn't something you just created out of thin air. No, it's tried and practiced, but it's for a new day and it's been, uh, optimized for what you want to use
Kevin Brunner: for, like the Installment Cell Trust was started in 1971. Mm-hmm. At Ernst and Young, so their own partners could exit.
Hmm. And, and that was shared with me by the, the attorneys that put it together? Yeah. For them. Um, it's used in mergers acquisition all the time. They'll call it a special purpose trust so the people exiting will the, the [00:05:00] money will land into this trust. Mm-hmm. There's other methods out there. Um, none of 'em is clean, simple, and as efficient though.
Mm-hmm. As, as this one method. So we use the other sometimes too. Okay. But your, your question, how did I arrive at all this? Um. I, I had to leave the Marine Corps early 'cause I, you know, I was in a crash helicopter. I was a crew chief, so I get medical for life and benefits, but, um, so I did plan B. 'cause plan A was to fly.
Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, um, plan BI went to work and I found I had a. A knack for finding efficiencies and things. I was very obsessed with w Edward Deming and his theories and, um, you can Google and look that up. And I eventually went deep into statistical process control and total quality management and Six Sigma, uh, especially six Sigma in the theories of that.
And if you apply those theories to financial planning, you find all the inefficiencies. Hmm. [00:06:00] That financial advisors are kind of built in, the advice they give. And then later on when I entered the industry, I bought my advisor's practice. He wanted to retire. He convinced me to buy his practice. Mm-hmm.
That's how it all started in 2004. And he'd been my advisor since I was very young, my grandparents' advisor, and, um. I started seeing all these things in the industry, so I didn't want to do that. I wanted to do something else. And the broker dealer who holds your license said, no, that's not approved. You gotta do it this way.
'cause he makes more money if you do it the other way.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: So I went independent my first year. And I was fortunate, very fortunate enough to be in a financial position to afford to do that because the industry doesn't like independent advisors. Mm. They want everybody falling in, lying and doing what they're told.
So going independent was rough.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: Um, I was criticized for the whole Model Q thing, and then after 2008 when my client sailed right through it, no trouble. In 2010 through 2015, I taught a class two Saturdays a month, [00:07:00] 10 months, a year. They paid me handsomely to talk to 200, sometimes 300 mm-hmm. On a Saturday in La Jolla, California.
Um, CPAs, financial advisors, people like that, I would train them. Mm-hmm. So, um, and the guy that called me to do it. I didn't make him meet Crow, you know? Yeah. He You graciously accepted. I graciously accepted 'cause he was the one that giving me the most trouble. Yeah. Earlier. Right. But it wasn't my strategy.
It was EF Hutton's strategy. Yeah. And we just swapped the instruments for the 21st century version of what he was doing. So it was a proven, proven strategy. Mm-hmm. So nothing we do with clients, we can't back up with 50 years of history.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. Um,
Kevin Brunner: which is. I,
Josh Gregory: I think that, especially when you're talking about small business owners, which we'll get into some of like, you know, how you got into the space you're in, but.
Who are meeting you for the first time and trusting you with their business, it does a lot to just say, Hey, this isn't just some algorithm I came up with on a [00:08:00] Saturday. This is something that's tried and tested mm-hmm. Through decades. Yeah. And there's a lot of really smart people behind this as well. Uh, I think that does a lot for both credibility and trust when you're trying to help people make.
Big decisions with their retirement and, you know, generational wealth in a lot of ways.
Kevin Brunner: Yeah. I, I live right behind Chapman University. Mm-hmm. In Old Town, orange, orange County, California. It's beautiful. All the old restored craftsman houses and stuff. And there's a little pub downtown. Mm-hmm. And some of the professors from the university, we get there and drink a few pints and get, yeah.
So one of the economics professors there though, um, we've had some very interesting debates about stuff. Um, he's conceded that tariffs might work. That's working out differently than they thought. Um, we'll see. Yeah, we'll see how that works out. Yeah. Um, anyways, he forwarded me, um, a long time ago now 'cause I've known him for a very long time.
Um, a white paper written by a Harvard economist that mirrored my model Q. And it was so much more well [00:09:00] written than the white paper I wrote. I don't know how mine got published because, you know, mine was six pages, his was like 36 and, but the guy's got two doctorates in economics and something else.
Right. You know, so, um, but it confirmed the strategy and why it works better. Mm-hmm. And, um, so it's, it's, again, it's not unique to us. There's slight variations of it out there that are acceptable. Yeah. They're, they're very good. Um, when a business owner goes to exit mm-hmm. That's one of the scariest things they'll ever do.
Correct. You see, when they started that business, they were full of hope and they were way overconfident in their abilities and skills. Yeah. And they had the ability to make up for anything by working till 2:00 AM we've all done that. Yep. You know, uh, take a nap in the car at lunch. 'cause you were up all night.
Right. Yeah. We've we've all done that. Right. On the exit. You can't do that when you exit, you're done. Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, when those. That closes escrow, you're done. Mm-hmm. And if you've not spent the time to stage yourself for the exit, that can end up very [00:10:00] ugly. Yeah. And I was running into, when I first came into this industry I was running in, that was 2004.
Mm-hmm. Um, people that were exiting and they didn't have enough money after they were done paying all the taxes and stuff that they didn't have to go back to work.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: And they say, wait a minute, I sold my business for $5 million. Why do I have to go back to work?
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: You know, 'cause 'cause they will run outta money if they don't go back to work.
Right. It was because they listened to the wrong advice. We have a book called Just Say No to Bad Financial Advice, the subtitles that, uh mm-hmm. And it's on Amazon, the second edition's coming out in a week. Okay. And, um, we have a whole section in there on bad advice from financial advisors. Now the things to specifically say no to.
Yes. And I'm telling you, there's not a broker dealer, securities broker dealer. It's a good thing we're SEC registered. Yeah. That would sign us if they ever read that chapter because we've committed the sin, you know, we've dimed out the industry. Yeah. But people need to know this so they follow bad advice or it's safer to pay the tax.
It is never safer to pay the tax. That's a myth. [00:11:00] Mm-hmm. It's a complete myth. Um, if, if, if it's a legitimate deduction, take the deduction.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: If you've done it correctly, never fear an audit. An audit costs five grand to represent and, and win an audit. Why are you gonna spend $40,000 or a $100,000 to avoid 5,000?
You only got a 3% chance of being audited. So that's just bad advice. That it's safer to pay the tax a hundred percent. So they follow people and, and the people they're following generally have the best intentions. Mm-hmm. They really do. Um, and they're usually good folks. They're just wrong. So then they end up losing 40% of their transaction to unnecessarily mm-hmm.
Recovered depreciation and gains taxes. If you're in a state like California or Illinois or New York, or, or you know, high tax state, a lot of small business owners can't afford to it. They do the math, they sit down. There's not enough money left over, so they have to buckle down and keep going. Mm-hmm.
Well, now you feel kind of trapped, like you're a slave to the business that you. I spent some [00:12:00] cremated. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I was, I was watching these baby boomers that were exiting and how can I work all these years, end up where I'm at. It's not gonna work. It's because of the taxes. So most taxes voluntarily paid because you didn't plan ahead.
Mm. To be in a lower tax bracket. So it, and we want you to be, we want you to be so successful that your marginal rate, that's the first rate, is the highest. I hope you're in the top rate. I want the effective rate. What you pay after the math works itself out to be 10%. I mean, if 10 percent's good enough for the Lord, it should be good enough for the government.
Right. Government. Yeah. You know, so, yeah. Um, I know a little sarcasm there. No, it's,
Josh Gregory: yeah. I, I agree. Yeah. So. You're running into this, all these different business opportunities. Yeah. Where's the industry that you ended up, you know, that you and Q companies ended up spending a lot of your time. Where do you spend a lot of your [00:13:00] time today?
Kevin Brunner: We spend a, um, the majority of our business comes in through this installment sale trust transaction. Mm-hmm. And this is, um, apartment owners that want to exit without dealing with 10 31. Mm. So we actually have a, uh, 10 31 accommodation service. It became easier just to start our own than to keep arguing with the attorneys at the other things, you know?
Mm-hmm. 'cause they were wrong. They're just not gonna admit it. Right. So, um, we were approved in four months by the IRS and the Installment Sale Trust was approved as an alternative to, to a 10 31 by the IRS and only four months. 'cause they know us, we communicate with them, they're not going away. So you'd better have good relations, right?
Yeah. Um, so. In trying to provide these services, we ended up having to bring a lot of that stuff in-house to get the fees down. Okay. So we get the fingers out of the pie. So we set up our own in-house fiduciary registered investment advisory firm. That's fee only. We have our own fiduciary trustee service.
Mm. [00:14:00] Um, through City National Bank is the bank we use, we use their trust division. Um, that way there's no funny business. Yeah. Once the money's in the trust. Right. And we can keep our eye on 'em, you know? What's that? Uh, Ronald Reagan. A trust but verify. Mm-hmm. Alright. So, and we're, we're big on that. And by doing that, it's expensive to start each of these divisions.
It's a huge investment. Yeah. But consistently, our fees used to be to do all this by paying everybody was like 3%. It was like, yeah, 2, 8, 5. Mm-hmm. We've got it down below. One and a half, a $5 million. Trust is less than one point. All in everything. All the service is everything you're provided. Yeah. We still make the same, but just not all these outside fingers in the pie.
So that's, that's where it went. It started out, um, the company actually has been reincorporated. It started out as Brunner Financial, my last name, then a mentor of mine, Lee Brower. Um, close personal friend, wonderful guy. Um, uh, he's famous for talking about gratitude, the power of gratitude. Mm-hmm. So if you go to lee brower.com, you, there's great stuff to watch there.
Um, anyways, [00:15:00] he said, Kevin, you can't sell a company with your name on the door unless you're Ken Fish or Chuck Schwab. Yeah, it'll be hard. You need to change that. So we went through, um, we reincorporated, so it's still the same company, just reincorporated. Um, the letter QQ is a series of, um, formulas actuaries use Mm.
To determine how much income a portfolio will generate. Got it. That's where Q comes from, right? Yeah. So the reason you're saving for retirement is to replace income. Yep. But you're investing for growth. Well, that's okay when you're 30. Mm-hmm. That's not okay when you're 60. Yeah. So you have to learn how to flip.
And most advisors don't wanna do this 'cause they make less money doing it this way. Um, you have to flip the strategy on its head and you gotta do that about five years out from retiring. And you have to structure the investments to maximize income and you must in the process control expenses. So we've brought a lot of these things in-house, set up these separate service [00:16:00] companies mm-hmm.
That are all under the queue companies, um, to get the fees down for all this. And so that we can, we can keep it focused like it's supposed to be. Yeah. Right. So we maximize income and in the process of maximizing income, you have to control expenses in your business. Your business you're running right now.
Mm-hmm. Your net profit, what you take home depends on how well you control expenses. Correct. Alright. And you don't want go, you don't, you don't wanna go cheap. You know, 'cause you, you, later on you always, you'd spend a little more, right? Mm-hmm. But you don't wanna be wasteful and you have to be efficient and you have to coordinate when you know, like if you're leasing trucks, you want those to be overlapping over time, right?
Mm-hmm. You don't want 'em all come to it one year. Right. You know, stuff like that. Same thing in financial planning, the same discipline applies. So what is your biggest expense? Taxes. Mm-hmm. People say, well you have to pay if you've made a profit, do you? Ideally not, right? No. So with forethought and planning, we can keep you in about a 10% [00:17:00] effective rate.
So there's the marginal rate, then the effective rate. Mm-hmm. We rarely get people to zero. We'll get you to zero for one or two years.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: But over time you'll, you'll be in about a 10%.
Josh Gregory: Okay. Yeah. So, I know you mentioned apartments and, and I think too, you guys have gotten into some of the, the route exits as well.
Mm-hmm. Some things like FedEx. How did you end up in that space too? Uh, the apartments or the
Kevin Brunner: FedEx? FedEx. The FedEx. Um, in 2012, um, a business broker I was working with brought me a guy selling and he, and he says the deal's fallen apart because he met his CPA and said, after taxes, there's not enough money left.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: Can you help me? So it's not gonna close. This business broker was losing a deal. Mm-hmm. That pulled me into working with business brokers. Yeah. That pulled me into running a brokerage, a business brokerage, alongside the financial services firm until the owner could convince me to buy it. And, um, managing business brokers like herding cats sometimes.
Yeah. So, yeah. Um, uh, although I'm very impressed [00:18:00] here, the meeting I had with you people yesterday, that is a very different crew. Crew. Thank you. I am, I'm very impressed. You guys are doing better than I did with my 44. I'll tell you what, so, so I ended up buying the place, I had 44 business brokers working for me.
Mm-hmm. And we were engineering transactions that would not have been a viable transaction, right. Without the planning. So both the buyer and seller benefited from doing it the way we were doing it, but we had to state sometimes we had to delay closing. Mm-hmm. You know, six months to a year. So we could reposition everything to make this transaction efficient.
It requires some patience, some forethought, some planning, some ability to bring in some advisors. You know, they always say, oh, but I've had the same CPA 20 years, you've been overpaying your taxes for 20 years. Yeah. You know, you, you gotta bring in some people that understand how to do all of this. Um, and it's, it's not that they're not good people.
They've just not been trained, trained on this, So we gotta get the expenses [00:19:00] down. Um, we gotta get the expenses down on the exit. A FedEx transaction is, is unique compared to other, other businesses, um, because a FedEx contractor doesn't own very much. He owns the trucks, he owns the computers, he owns the contracts.
He might own a building somewhere that he keeps things, stuff like that. But there's not as much involved. So it's, unique compared to other businesses, and yet there is a lot involved. You still have a lot of little things you gotta do to comply with what FedEx requires, and. People complain, but what FedEx requires isn't unreasonable.
Look at it from their point of view. These things they want. And if you're staging things correctly, you're making each of those things more efficient. Um, you might need to hire somebody. Mm-hmm. You think, well, how can more payroll help me? Well, it can, it can make you much more efficient. Yeah. So there's a whole series of things you need to do about five years in advance to create these efficiencies.
So again, the exit is a multiple of a higher number. [00:20:00] Um, very often, uh, a business owner, let's say they have real estate with the business, they'll wanna keep the real estate and sell the business and make the new owner the tenant. Mm-hmm. The problem is they were never charging themselves market rate rent.
So the p and ls aren't gonna work with the new owner because now the numbers changed. 'cause now you expect market rate rent on that property. Right? Right. Well, with the installment sale trust, they sell all of it, which is a better deal for the buyer. Because he can get better financing terms if the real estate's included.
Okay. So there's just a whole series of things that this. It opens the door to by using this trust as the exit vehicle.
Josh Gregory: Okay.
Kevin Brunner: Now,
Josh Gregory: uh, you've touched on it some, but when, when sellers come to you and you're trying to have these first conversations, what do you find are often that kind of their biggest misconceptions about the way that these exits will look?
That you guys are working early to help them understand what it'll look like?
Kevin Brunner: They often think their business is worth more than it is. Yeah.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: They often think their [00:21:00] business is, um. Well, they know, they know where that is. They know what shelf that's on. Right. But it's not written down. They don't have SOPs and manuals and 'cause they don't need it to do it themselves.
Mm-hmm. So they've not, um, also their conception of the exit. Well, if I sell for 5 million, I could live on 5 million. So they haven't done the math. Mm-hmm. Um, 5 million doesn't go very far these days. Um. They've not done exit planning. Yeah. They, they have no concept. The other thing that scares, um, when you're, let's say you're 65 and you're getting ready to exit in the back of their mind thinking, what am I gonna do the day after I don't come to work anymore?
Yeah. It's what I've done for 30 years, 40 years, you know? Um. My father worked till he was 88. My mother 84. My other grandfather 86, grandmother 82. My mom retired twice. So, um, yeah, [00:22:00] she, after she retired as a principal of a school, she started a nonprofit. Hmm. And then set up over 40 copycats of that nationwide and then retired from that.
So I'm thinking, you know, myself. What am I gonna do? Mm-hmm. Because, you know, we work till we're in eighties, all the brewers do, you know, we all live to be 90 something. And, um, this business owner, they don't have a plan for what happens on the other side. And are, do you wanna work to your 80? No. So they also don't understand where the income's gonna come from.
Yeah. Well, I'll have 5 million. So if that, if I invest that at such and such, I'll have so much, so much money. Then you start taking the clips out. You start taking the market volatility out. You take the taxes off the top. Oops. You know? Yeah. So they haven't done an exit plan. They haven't sat down and really run the numbers in the earlier you start planning your exit, the better it's gonna be.
These things take time to put together. [00:23:00] Um, if you're planning an exit in five years, you have to reorganize your financing of your trucks. You might have to renew some of your fleet. 'cause of some of it's too old. FedEx won't approve it. Um, you might finance everything differently. You might pay some debt down.
So you need to meet with a consultant no less than five years out. Now, maybe you're not gonna exit in that year. Mm-hmm. But pick a date, meet with a consultant, start staging the business. There's efficiencies we can create. You guys have these fuel card systems, you have all kinds of things to start tuning things up to make sure that exit is a multiple of a much higher number.
Yeah. You know, they need to meet with you guys, especially. You know, trucking bread route. Mm-hmm. FedEx people, they need to meet with you guys, get a, a valuation on the business as it is. Get some consulting on what can they change in the business. Yeah. Sometimes just reorganizing your financing, how you financed everything.
That can dramatically change the exit number, the valuations, [00:24:00] right? Yeah. Um, sometimes they need to hire somebody. And run the business differently. Mm-hmm. And they will, but, but how can that make me more profitable? Now I have payroll. Well, I can because it's gonna free you up to do all the other things.
Right. Right. So what I find is they, they don't get the right exit consulting, you know? 'cause that's gonna cost you some money to hire the consultant mm-hmm. To do that. Mm-hmm. To stage everything. They, they, they don't spend the time doing that. They were good at growing the business 'cause they just put their nose to the stone and just keep going.
All operations. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot more to running a business than that. Mm-hmm. And, and it's hard for them to hear sometimes that your business is a widget and some guy that's really good at making efficient widgets. Can run your business more efficiently, even though he's never run a trucking company.
Mm-hmm. Because he has certain disciplines Yeah. That apply to every business, doesn't matter what it is. So you guys can bring those skills in to stage them for the exit. We can make sure that exit's tax deferred, [00:25:00] it's not free, the taxes are deferred, the money stays invested. Then we eliminate it year over year over time.
Yeah. Um, that's the cleanest way to do it. So it's more efficient on the other side and, and the two together, you know? 'cause we wear different hats, right?
Josh Gregory: Yeah. So, so, so paint those two pictures for me. So I would imagine there's still plenty of people that you don't talk to for the first time until two months before closing and you're trying to figure out what's time, what's the pathway, what, what can we do versus.
Somebody who I think in your ideal scenario, you said they've started their planning process five years in advance and they're, they're doing everything they can and they're working with you, working with, with someone to help them optimize their business and, and plan properly. What do the outcomes look like on average between those two dramatically?
D
Kevin Brunner: um, the guy that, that comes to us five years in advance mm-hmm. His exit is just on the calendar. Yeah. They've already scheduled that 80 days around the world cruise that you can Yeah. Or 180 days, [00:26:00] whatever it is, you know? Yeah. That, that cruise you heard about that cruise? Mm-hmm. You live on the boat?
They've already scheduled. I had a client did that.
Josh Gregory: Um, I think I, I think I'd get sick of the boat before I'd be done with it. I mean, the travel is not, I do like cruise travel. Yeah. Where my hotel room moves me to each location. That is nice, isn't it? Which is nice. Yeah. It's actually nice. But 180 days is a long
Kevin Brunner: time.
Um. I don't know. He, he filled up my email inbox. I did get him to start using my personal email, not my work email. Yeah. Uh, they had a good time. There was some crazy places that went on a safari. They went on all kinds of stuff as they were doing this. Um, no. So the guy that plans five years in advance mm-hmm.
His exit can be 50% better. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I'm not kidding. Is X gonna be 50% better with the forethought and planning? Okay. And then it just becomes a date on the calendar. That all the employees get together and they have a barbecue and a cake and mm-hmm. And they sail off into the sunset, confidently not worried about it.
You know, they've already bought the RV that they're taking the grandkids for two months, a [00:27:00] tour to all the national parks one summer, you know? Yeah. Get 'em away from the screens. Yeah. Right. You know, they've already, these are things my clients have done, have planned in advance. We had a closing. That was gonna be late.
Mm-hmm. Because they had to do something to the property in the business. Right. And he said, I'll just concede that in escrow they can have the $110,000. We've already bought the rv, we're already leaving. You know, and, and he, he didn't care about the 110,000. Yeah. They had to build this training wall in the hill behind.
Okay. You know, or for insurance reasons. Right. And, um, he's, I don't care where, you know, he was that set. Yeah. Then I have other people that finally come to me two months out. And they're panicked. Mm-hmm. I remember a specific guy I met in San Diego. His hands were shaking as he was trying to remain calm.
'cause he'd just come back from his CPA and been given some numbers. Mm-hmm. He goes, I can't afford to do this, but I'm roped in if I don't close escrow. Yeah. I'm under
Josh Gregory: contract. Right. I'm
Kevin Brunner: under contract. I don't close escrow. I got, you know, legal and financial liabilities here. I didn't know it was gonna be this bad.
Yeah. I'm gonna have to find [00:28:00] another job after this. I'm not, I'm not actually retiring. He was panicked. Mm-hmm. Now. Did we save him? Yes. Would it have been a whole lot better had he at least given us 12 months runway? Yeah. 24 months runway. We can do a lot in 24 months. Yeah. Um, five years is optimal. You don't need six.
Um, but you'd be thinking about it even if you're 10 years out. Be thinking about it. Mm-hmm. My grandfather, um, I'm sure he read it somewhere. I always thought he was the wisest man on earth until I read more. Uh, will Rogers and Mark Twain come to find out? He was just, well, just, yeah. Yeah. He was real into the stoics too.
Yeah, he was, uh, big into the stoics. Um, but, uh, he said this to me several times growing up. He said, A rich man plans for three generations. A poor man plans for Saturday night. If you're not planning for three generations. Yeah. Yeah. So not to get religious, but God has entrusted you with something. Mm-hmm.[00:29:00]
He's given you good health. Hopefully he's given you some brains. He wired you to have a work ethic. Mm-hmm. Because you're not a FedEx contractor. One of these, if you don't have a work ethic, you don't last very long. Right. Yeah. So you, you can't clock in at eight and clock out at five and, and run this.
It's just, it's just not that way. So you were blessed with certain skills and certain abilities. You were entrusted with these things. Mm-hmm. This has generational impact. Yep. It's not about you. It really isn't.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: Um, I tell my advisors, it's not our money. Somebody spent 40 years putting this together.
He wants grandchildren, he'll never meet. Mm-hmm. Doesn't not have to worry about student loans. Right. You gotta take that serious. Yeah.
Josh Gregory: And, and it's often not. You know, it's often just making sure that they're getting the value that they've created. It's not, it's not even always creating new value, it's just saying, this is what you should be getting in your exit.
Yeah. If you plan properly.
Kevin Brunner: Yeah.
Josh Gregory: And there's a lot that [00:30:00] goes into it, but,
Kevin Brunner: and they worked hard and they expected it. And they deserve it. Just nobody taught 'em Yeah. To do this or this or this. And they're overwhelmed. Mm-hmm. A lot going on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all of us entrepreneurs, myself included, get up early on Saturday.
We'd like to sleep in, but we go, we just get up when the wife gives you the sharp elbow. 'cause you're tossing and turning it's time to get up, right? Yeah. So, um, she's a night owl. I'm a I'm a morning person, so that's always, always fun. Yeah. Well she gets coffee every morning. She, she appreciates it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, um, anyway, it's, you did all of that and then you go to exit and find out. And, and, and you put it in. You just weren't taught the best way to go about it. Yeah. You put in the hours, so they need to meet with some of your consultants here mm-hmm. And start developing an exit plan. Yeah. Even if you're not exiting for a long time, you guys have business valuation people.
Um, you guys have those fuel systems that are more efficient. You [00:31:00] have all kinds of things. Um, I, I'm. I had no idea. Route consult is as big. Mm-hmm. And the services and the quality of what you guys provide until I came here.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: You know, I, I've worked with you guys many times. Yeah. But from a distance to come here and see the campus and to see all the services and see the culture and see everything there.
Um, and that you're thinking long term that way. Um, I have to tell you, I'm incredibly impressed.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. I, I think there is a lot. That goes into helping people get the most value outta it. Like, like there's a lot on the stack side, and I think it's too, it's, I, I don't think people process how much of a difference it makes to have small changes in operations because they're thinking about, you know, saving $5,000 over the course of a year.
That's one thing, but if you're selling it at a four multiple, that's $20,000 and the, you know, the, yeah. The amplification of that. And then you think about the tax side too. There's a lot that you end up making for yourself by [00:32:00] saving a little bit and having the right practices, particularly leading up to a close, like we're talking about in those last few years.
Yeah. And it just takes thorough planning and, and sitting and down and deciding that that's your exit and, and working with someone to help you get there. Pick a date.
Kevin Brunner: Mm-hmm. Sit down with your spouse. Pick a date, pick a plan. Um, call me up. Yeah. We'll have, we'll have a conversation about how much you need to have to replace your income.
Yeah. Tell me what your net income is. That's a simple calculation. Um, we don't charge for any of that, by the way. Yeah. If, if you'll be a good student, um, I do accept, uh, tomahawk steak and bourbon. Yeah. But if you'll be a good student, I'll spend a lot. My wife teasing me. You give away millions of dollars of advice for a steak.
Dinner. It's like, I like steak, but I like steak. But you know how many people get referred back from that? Yeah. You know? Yeah. So it, it's, it's a good investment from both sides. It is. [00:33:00] We'll show you, pick a date, pick a number, and start thinking about it. It might be 10 years out. Mm-hmm. Start thinking about it now.
Are you gonna exit on that date? Maybe, maybe not.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: Um, but you need to have a plan for the exit to not have a plan for the exit. Um, in 2020, I had a heart attack from blood clots, from COVID. My heart's permanently damaged, had to have a five-way bypass and you know, it's all damaged. That wasn't in the plan.
'cause I didn't have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, nom meds other than some joints that hurt from years ago. Right. Yeah. Um, I was really healthy. Mm-hmm. This was out of the blue, right? Yeah. Now, if I hadn't had in my business. All the succession planning, but legally we have to have that. Mm-hmm. We have to have successor trustees and successor advisors.
We have to have all that in place. Um, I didn't touch email for two months.
Josh Gregory: Yeah, I was in a hos that's coming out as, as an entrepreneur for decades. Not
Kevin Brunner: touching email is rough. Yeah. I [00:34:00] didn't do anything for two months 'cause I was in a hospital bed in my own living room with nurses coming by twice a day.
So, um, it took me two years to be able to do 5,000 steps consistent without having to sit down. Yeah. I now do 10,000 most every day. Good for you. I have a Labrador that holds me accountable. Forces. He holds me accountable. He does. He does. Uh, he's best accountability partner. You want to do 10,000 steps, buy a lab?
Um, no. Um, I looked at my own business and the fact that I had all these things already set up. Yeah. Now, when clients called, they had to, they had to talk to Christian or Morris or Trevor or somebody else, right? Mm-hmm. I have some clients, by the way, are still talking to them, never came back to me. Mm-hmm.
You know, 'cause the personality, they prefer them Right. To sit back and be able to know that. I can recover. Mm-hmm. I can spend time with my family and get myself healthy and my clients will be fine. Um, um, honestly, parts of the business got a little better 'cause I got outta the way. I know, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, but to be able to do that, [00:35:00] because the business was staged, already staged for an exit at any time, if I chose to exit now, obviously I, I got, well, I got better and you came back and we've, um. We're three and a half, almost four times what we were then. Congratulations. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, but what I did when I came back was I just doubled down on the things that work.
Mm-hmm. And that was when even more of our focus came over to this installment sale trust. Let's help people in their exit.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: That's usually the largest transaction these people have ever made.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: Yeah. Yeah. And if it's not done correctly. You know, that's a generational impact. Mm-hmm. We have two clients on the third generation.
We have over 40 on the second generation based on age of clients. That number is gonna double the next few years. Yeah. And to meet with the grandchildren, the children and grandchildren, to really see that impact of somebody who's not here anymore and see the impact that's [00:36:00] coming from that. It's very personally rewarding.
Yeah. It, it, it is. Yeah.
Josh Gregory: Yeah, and I mean, you're entrepreneurs never have it easy. And seeing somebody that has built something for decades and seeing them struggle is one of the hardest things about, I'm sure your job and our job as well is like, you know, you encounter those conversations where somebody's coming to you and there's only so much you can do.
You're doing everything you can, but there's only so much late in the process that you can do to salvage a situation for somebody who's built something for decades, but to be able to. Properly help somebody really structure that exit structure, that plan to get everything that they deserve from what they have built is one of the most gratifying things.
And, and to see a generational impact like that is, I mean, it's, it's one of the most validating things you can do in this business.
Kevin Brunner: It's, it's when you see the person that comes to you four months out, 'cause the, their tax guy told 'em what the tax bill was. Yeah. Oh, I have a friend help you with that. And, and I get involved.
Yeah. [00:37:00] And they have to exit because if they don't exit, it's gonna get worse, not better. That's just the situation. Um, it's heartbreaking. Mm-hmm. I mean, these people missed dinners and recitals and got to the hospital late. The baby was already born and Yeah. All that kind of stuff. You know, the grandchild's already born, um, or maybe the baby.
Yeah. Um, they sacrificed so much to then. Have an ugly exit. That's half what it could have been. Yeah. You know, the net, net half, what it could have been. Yeah. It's sad. It really is. 'cause they, they paid their dues, they just didn't get the right advice. Right. Consulting, right. Guidance.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Kevin Brunner: Um,
Josh Gregory: so that's the goal.
That's, that's, that's what you're here for. And I think you mentioned it. What, so if somebody is just, has questions and is trying to start a conversation with you mm-hmm. Whatever point they're in the process, what's the easiest way to reach out?
Kevin Brunner: Uh, sell my fdx.com. It's great. Great. URL makes it easy. Yeah, it is.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, you can see all of our companies, if you go to the Q letter Q mm-hmm. The Q [00:38:00] companies, plural. Yeah. The q companies.com and you'll see all the different, uh, companies there. Yeah. You can click on whichever one. Cool. And, and go to that. Um, we're not, we're now, we're not FedEx brokers. Mm-hmm.
We're not the, the, the business broker that, that's you. Alright. So, um. Our, our position here is to help you make that exit as financially efficient as possible. And sometimes even just to make it possible, sometimes it's not possible. Yeah, yeah. You, you guys have all seen, guy came to the end says, wait a minute.
Has to cancel everything. Yeah. Yeah. So you can't, can't afford to do it. Yeah. And that's no good for anybody. So Yeah. But the peace of mind. Um, I remember my father, he could fall asleep on the couch. His entire life. Mm-hmm. The man got a whole night's sleep every night. No problem. He laid down, was out in five minutes, slept, and one day I made a comment to my grandfather, his father, you know, it's nice how dad sleeps.
And he says, that's what a clear conscience does. I, that stuck with me. So [00:39:00] you're not, not that you don't have a clear conscience, but when you have it all worked out mm-hmm. You know what your plan is, the numbers are worked out. You've received the right advice, you'll sleep better. Yeah, you will.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. So we'll leave it at that.
Uh, Kevin, that was a, it was a pleasure. Thank you. I think one of the, the last question I always ask everybody, uh, if you either have a TV or movie or book that you've either watched recently or read recently to recommend for anybody watching, what would it be? Or you can do both.
Kevin Brunner: Wow. It
Josh Gregory: doesn't have to be your favorite.
That's too hard of a question. So anything that you've
Kevin Brunner: consumed? Well, this is kind of heavy. I've started working, I'm gonna read it for the second time, but, uh, St. Thomas Aquinas, his writings. Oh, wow. Yeah. Um, so I've, I've started on that recently. So I, I read that an hour each night. 'cause um, I read it once.
Yeah. A long time ago. Um, movie. Yeah, I like that movie F1. Have you seen that? I haven't. That's the one with Brad Pitt. Right. It is an excellent [00:40:00] seen it yett story and there's even a moral to the story.
Josh Gregory: Okay. And I mean, I'm a, I I typically watch anything with Brad Pitt as soon as it comes out. Yeah. So, uh, it's, it's
Kevin Brunner: definitely on the list, but, um, my son and I wanna see it.
My son's totally into F1. Everything. Yeah. He's just diehard into all of it, knows everything about it. Um, stuns me, but we took my wife and she said, you know, I didn't want to come, but that was a good movie. Okay. It was a good story. Easy. There was even a moral to the story in there. Yeah. Okay. I'll take my wife too about life choices.
Yeah. Perfect. It was, it was, um,
Josh Gregory: yeah, you should see it. Okay. It's on the list. Alright. Alright, Kevin, appreciate you coming out and, and sharing everything and thank you and sharing how people can work with you. Alright.
