Navigating Drug Testing with Dave + Amy Byers
Join us on Industry Insights with Route Consultant as Amy and Dave Byers discuss the critical topic of drug testing for FedEx Ground employees and drivers. Learn about the mandatory drug testing practices, including pre-employment, random, and suspicion-based testing. They also explore the complexities of compliance with both federal and state regulations, the consequences of failing a test, and the Substance Abuse Professional (SAP) program for those seeking a second chance. Gain valuable insights into building a safer, drug-free workplace in the logistics industry.
About Dave + Amy Byers
Dave Byers, President of Slicker Trucking, Inc., started as a FedEx package handler before launching his own route in 2007, growing it into an award-winning operation with a hands-on leadership style. His wife, Amy Byers, joined as COO in 2017, bringing expertise in marketing, compliance, and finance to scale their family-owned business. Together, they run multiple FedEx P&D and linehaul operations, two fleet repair shops, and businesses like Ohio Valley Pizza Company™ and Hokulia Shave Ice™, all while staying rooted in their core values of Honesty, Integrity, and Commitment to People.
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Josh Gregory: [00:00:00] Welcome to Industry Insights with Route Consultant, your front row seat to the fast moving world of logistics and beyond. Each week, we bring you game changing insights, real world strategies and fresh perspectives to fuel smarter investments and build stronger businesses. Join us as we sit down with expert guests to explore emerging trends and pressing topics.
Across a wide range of industries. This is industry insights. We have Dave and Amy Byers back in the studio, and we are talking about another exciting topic. Mm-hmm. This time, one that is really, it can be a real challenge for people as they're trying to evaluate employees. And that's drug testing. Yeah. Uh, and this is not talking just drug testing that you wanna do for fun.
This is, we're talking about, uh, a FedEx mandated drug testing. So first off. Can you just talk about a little on when you ever see drug testing and is, well, actually, let's go back even before that. Uh, does FedEx require it of all [00:01:00] drivers, p and d and linehaul?
Amy Byers: So FedEx doesn't require it, but it is in our ISPA and TSPA agreements.
Ah. Um, so yes. Um, it is required to be a FedEx driver, but it's a contract requirement Okay. Of independent service providers and, uh, transportation service providers on the. On the, um, p and d and line haul side? Yeah, so it's part of pre-employment testing. Um, there were some fuzziness about over 10 k under 10 k, uh, that's coming back.
Um, even, um, a PV, uh, a VP, however you wanna say it, those, um, drivers are now tested also. Mm-hmm. Um, so it is a pre, um, employment requirement. And then you are then put in the pool, uh, of random testing through. Uh, the FedEx network as well. Uh, and then there's all the other things that go along with testing and results and all the things that we'll kind of unpack today.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. So any employee is gonna be put at like before they ever start working for you. They do have to drug test
Amy Byers: in a driving. In a driving, okay. So, uh, position. Yeah. So non-drivers, [00:02:00] um, like. I'm not ever pulled, I'm a non-driver. Mm-hmm. Uh, jumpers would not, uh, we put them in a, uh, pool, a random pool as well.
Okay. For our company, just because I feel like they're in a safety sensitive Got it. Uh, position getting in and outta the trucks, handling the heavy boxes, making those decisions just because they're not driving.
Josh Gregory: So you can elect for non-drivers to be a part of the random pool, so it's part of your company
Amy Byers: policy.
Got it. Yeah. So you can't, not through the, the random pool at FedEx, but you can fact you have your own FedEx policy, have your own policies and handbook. As it as it relates to drug testing as a drug-free workplace. Okay.
Josh Gregory: And if a manager's not ever on the truck, not ever driving. You know, I, I guess they're technically out of the pool or what's the, our actual certification
Amy Byers: of all of our drivers are, um, certified to drive.
Yeah. Uh, they also have to train. Right? So they're all in the FedEx pool as active active drivers. So as you're certified to
Josh Gregory: drive and active, yeah. As long as you
Amy Byers: have an active safety sensitive function under the contract, um, you're considered personnel that are held to those contract standards. Okay.
Josh Gregory: So we'll talk about.[00:03:00]
On the hiring side in just a second. Yeah, but what is the random, you know, we say it's random. What does it, what does that look like? Is it just, you know, somebody could get pulled every week? Is it that, you know, people will randomly get pulled once a month? How often are we talking here?
Dave Byers: Well, we, we operate under the DOT number, so, so we're kind of at the mercy of, of random selection.
Um, I think they. What was it, 50%? Mm-hmm. 50% of the drivers get selected
Josh Gregory: a, a year or over the course of their, I think it's per quarter. Oh, wow. Yeah. 50% of all of the drivers in the FedEx pool?
Amy Byers: Yes. Okay. But it's not 50% of the individuals, it's 50% of the number. Of drivers at that terminal. So I've had drivers that get pulled every quarter.
Oh. And they're like, again. Um, and they're like, I swear Amy mean I didn't do anything wrong. And I'm like, I know that. But they just happen to be in the pool, Dave, because Dave is a driving candidate for all of our different. Yeah. You know, contracts, he gets pulled quite a bit, [00:04:00] um, once for each, each terminal or contract or ever.
How that works. So, um, I've never gotten pulled, but we do have people that have never gotten pulled. We've gotten people that get pulled once a quarter. We've gotten people that have been pulled two months in a row. Yeah. And they're like, I do. I look like, do I look sketchy? I'm like, no, no, no, you look fine.
I just, I don't know what it is. Just random. I guess just the nature of the job. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I
Josh Gregory: know it's random. Everybody always is like. Well, it feels like it's targeted, but is it, is it, as far as we know, is it truly is random? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, what does that process actually look like? You know, like you're, do, can you do it from anywhere because, you know, you might not be at the terminal, you might be somewhere else if they pull you.
Like, what does that process look like? There's, there's
Dave Byers: select. Approved vendors to go to.
Josh Gregory: Okay.
Dave Byers: So depending on what you're pooled for. Um, last quarter I was pooled for drug and alcohol. Okay. So I had to go to a new facility I've never been to because they issued the alcohol test as well. Yeah. So I went, did a
Josh Gregory: breathalyzer.
So the alcohol one is like actually testing. Like it almost [00:05:00] has to be like right now. Are you drunk if you got pulled? Yes. Have you, or
Amy Byers: recently? Because how
Josh Gregory: recently would lc I don't even know how recently alcohol shows up, but it can't be too long. Yeah.
Amy Byers: I mean, but that's. A guy that might be, I guess yeah.
Know drinking all night, two o'clock in the morning. It's 8:00 AM still in their system. I mean, it's still,
Josh Gregory: yeah.
Amy Byers: You know, I think, um, FAA is eight hours. Yeah. Okay.
Dave Byers: Yeah. So I went, did the alcohol test and then the breath flies in the studio. Yeah. Did the drug test. Yeah. Okay. But if it's just a drug test, we have another place that we usually get selected to go to.
So, uh, they'll, they'll come up to us in the morning, say, Hey, random, we need you to go, you have two hours from a, from right now Yeah. To get it done. And that driver
Amy Byers: cannot leave.
Dave Byers: Got it. Um,
Amy Byers: they have to be, uh, we usually escort them. We have a manager take 'em, or they can go on their way on route. Um,
Josh Gregory: but And how, how do you get told you're doing?
Is it an email or like, do they grab you in person? Okay. So it's always has to be in person. Mm-hmm. And so they just have a list for that day. They come and grab people and, yes. Yeah.
Dave Byers: You know, sometimes they'll bring [00:06:00] onsite, onsite nurses. Mm-hmm. And Oh wow. We've had that like in the terminal, like you're doing it right now.
Well, it's a convenience thing too. Yeah. So you don't have to, before you dispatch for your route, you don't have to Okay. You somewhere it quicker. You don't
Josh Gregory: miss out on the day. It's also
Amy Byers: security measure too. They can't go get samples or anything in their car or contraband, anything like that. So it's a little bit more controlled environment.
Josh Gregory: And and what happens if they refuse to take the test? Fail? Like what's, they just automat fail. It's fail. A fail to fail. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Amy Byers: Refuse. Because have you,
Josh Gregory: have you all had anyone try that as like, oh yeah. Yeah. Because it sounds like it's a way of being like, I'm not subjecting myself to this. Really?
Yeah.
Amy Byers: So there's a couple different ways to fail as a refusal too, so you can, um, which we hear quite a bit, you know, from the same. Group of people, um, you know, they've gone to the testing site and they can't make a sample. Yeah. Which is a myth. Yeah. Uh, but just can't. Right. Yeah. And they're drinking water.
Drinking water, drinking water. Still can't. Mm-hmm. Um, if they leave and then come back, it's an automatic fail. So if they stay in the lobby, in the controlled environment Yeah. And continue to [00:07:00] drink water and wait it out, uh, they can still test. Eventually They will test. Yeah. Um, so if they even, even if they make, you know, give a small sample, it's not enough to test, they can't leave.
Yeah. They'll still let 'em produce another sample or an additional sample, but they cannot leave. So once you leave, it's a fail. If you refuse, it's a fail if it's out, out of temperature. So, I mean, we get 'em where they're, you know, cold or like 112 degrees. Dude, you got a little bit more of going on. You got some just drug, right?
For sure. Um, so at a temp, um, we've had some test, um, different sugar levels, um, males testing, like for female what, whatever. Not the right sample. Clearly not there. Clearly not. Um, or there's a test of, um, like diluted. Yeah. Or, um, any type of contraband. Uh, yeah. I know we've tried, the guys have tried Ajax and there's all these, you know, all kinds, whatever's on the internet.
Yeah. Must be true. You've probably seen, but those are all different way, those are all fail. Yeah. Those are all, there's no option. [00:08:00] You'll be, um, disqualified per the contract. You'll be disqualified for a year at least. Um, and then that's, you know, off you go. Yeah. And then you're, you're done that day. So if you fail and it's reported, um, you can't even, um.
You for any of those reasons. Yeah. You can't even bring the truck back.
Josh Gregory: Okay.
Amy Byers: So you have to go rescue a person on, on site.
Josh Gregory: Okay. Which is, yeah, I'm sure that's a fun day. Mm-hmm. Suddenly you find out that the guy you were waiting on that was, you were trying to delay their day. Now they're not gonna show up at all.
Amy Byers: Well, we've had people give samples. Mm-hmm. I mean, just regular samples, nothing seems up. And then a week, two weeks, maybe even three weeks later, the results come and the terminal call and say, Hey, so and so reported positive, you gotta get 'em off the road. And they're. Right at a pickup or where Yeah, in the middle of, and then you have to make a, yeah, you have to make a game plan.
They're like, well, can I just come back? I'm like, no, nah, you have to stop. You can longer, longer, like from this moment you can no longer produce, uh, or, you know, yeah. Service, uh, safety function for us.
Josh Gregory: Is there any kind of appeal process? I, I don't see how there would [00:09:00] be, but,
Amy Byers: um, so they can appeal to the MRO?
Yeah. Um, typically we do get positives. Um, if people are on certain medications, yeah, it'll flag. But that 800 number, which no one. Answers. Right. Um, the m o's calling to say, do you have any of these drugs in your system? Um, or, you know, if it's a prescription that's popping mm-hmm. Or something flagged. So they're giving you an opportunity to answer the question.
Yeah. Even if you said, yes, I'm on this, this, and this. By the time it gets to the MRO, which is the Medical Review Office, um, for FedEx or for, uh, first Advantage, um, those then. You know, we'll flag so you can answer the question. So if it comes up, usually what happens is they skip that phone call. Yeah. It comes up positive.
They're deadlined and then they say, oh, no, no, no, I'm on X, Y, Z medications. Can you get me in touch? I'm like, yes. Here's the, so then they have to call consumer advocacy with their, you know, drug test number and they can call and say, Hey, I'm on this. They verify it and within 24, 48 hours, they're back in the game.
Um, the ones that are truly [00:10:00] positive for illicit. You know, illegal drugs is the issue. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and there's no appeal for that. Yeah. You've used drugs.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. And we'll come back to what happens if they fail, but let's, let's go back to a little bit on the prevention side. So first off, it comes down to how you recruit.
Mm-hmm. Um, so how do you kind of educate drivers on what this policy is and what's expected of them, like from day one?
Amy Byers: So, a lot of people in Ohio know. Right. Yeah. Because Ohio is a legal state now. Yep. Um, so there, you know, and there are some other shippers that allow drug use at a certain level mm-hmm.
Based on, you know, under 10 K or what have you. So they're coming from those. Um, types of previous employment. So you can ask the questions. You know, we ask, um, the five basics. Are you 21? Can you pass a drug test? Can you pass a DOT physical? Can you, you know, can you, yeah. All the, all the things. And if you're all these things, then we can move to the next stage.
Um, it's amazing how many people we say, do you do drugs including weed? And they're still like. [00:11:00] No, no, I don't. And they're like, oh, well I did a month ago with a friend and I haven't, or you know, I've actually had people call and say, well, I used to work for this shipper and they allowed it, so it wasn't anything, but I wanna really work for you.
What does that look like? I'm like, you need to be clean. Yeah. And they, and, and they will. Change they, they'll make a life change for our career. Opportunity. Opportunity. But it's, you know, I prefer honesty over. Yeah. You know, sending 'em for the DOT physical and the drug screen and then it's like negative or positive, positive, positive, you know, or negative, dilute, whatever that looks like.
Yeah. So those are some options that she can, yeah.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. And I imagine in a state in particular where, where weeds legal is mm-hmm. Even harder, uh, to just make sure they understand it on the front end, because I'm sure you get a lot of applications that automatically are ruled out just because of that.
Yeah.
Amy Byers: We get, um, medical, I have a medical card. Mm-hmm. It still doesn't matter, right? Yeah. You know, federally regulated, it's zero.
Dave Byers: Yeah. So, just for clarity, right. Where. Federally regulated. Mm-hmm. Not at the state level. So, yeah. So there's a, there's a difference. [00:12:00] It's a difference. It could be legal state level, but federal not.
Okay. Yeah.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. And I'm sure that's, do you, do you actually put it on the job description? Mm-hmm. And still, I'm sure people don't read it. Yeah.
Amy Byers: I mean, we put it on the job description and then it's the first line of questioning for the screening process. And then we have phone screens and it's, we reiterate like, and again, yeah.
You know, can you X, Y, Z? And they still. We still get some that I'm like, really? Yeah. The three times asking wasn't cleared enough. Yeah. And then you have some that will pass. Um, and then, you know, if they take a random, then they, they don't pass, or, or you smell it on 'em. Mm-hmm. You know, and then there's that line of questioning down.
How do you handle that when you need the boxes to go out? Yeah. Um, and you can't look the other way. And it's really, you know, it's like, yeah, but I, you know, I'm not high now. I'm like, Hmm. Yeah. You know, you gotta go. So it's hard to find those people, right? And then, or you get a good candidate and you're like, yes, this one's, they're great at everything else.
This ones great, super good, dude, you know, everything's great. Or this lady's awesome. And she's like, [00:13:00] yeah, I can pass. And then you get that notice. I'm like, really? And then I call and I say, you know, here's consumer advocacy. You can call First Advantage, you can talk to MRO. And they're like, oh no, it's weed.
Like I'm.
Josh Gregory: Well, like, I know, I remember doing it. Yeah. There
Amy Byers: goes, you know, there goes two days of my time. Thanks so much for the, for the help. Um, but there is, you know, there's, there's, again, there's that medication list. Um, it also happens when people are injured or are, you know, yeah. If they're even a personal injury or a surgery, really staying in tune with what those drugs look like that they've been prescribed, and have the physician say, you know, they can come back when they're off of this med.
Or when the prescription is destroyed, or whatever that looks like because it's just, you know, oh, I had a bad back. You know, my back hurt last night, so I took two. Well, you know, the, the real implications I think that Dave and I talk about are if there is a driver that has anything in their system that could be.
Flagged or marked Elicit or not on the [00:14:00] Okay to drive list. That could be your contract, right? Yeah. And you have a lot of people working for you that you're responsible for, so to make sure that it is very clearly marked. That we talk about it in safety meetings. Mm-hmm. Um, we also, you know, mention it to people that take vacation.
Yeah. And I'm like, Hey, that's a tough one. Yes. Anything fun happened while you were on vacation that we should know about? Yeah. You know, and that's the difference between use and misuse. Mm-hmm. Maybe they're going somewhere where it's legal. Yeah. Um, but it's zero tolerance for the job that you've selected.
So crack a beer, enjoy yourself, come back to work. Have you had
Josh Gregory: any situation where. You know, somebody did go like on vacation or they were out and they did some kind of drug that they know they would fail and they told you in advance and it's something where you kept 'em off the job for a period of time, or you usually find that it's, people don't tell you until it's, they won't
Amy Byers: tell us.
Yeah. Oh. No, but we do put it out there. You know, we do say like, Hey, just let us know. Like it's really important that if something happened or if I see something on, you know, people with their social media, they love to share. Yeah. I'm like, is there something I need to [00:15:00] know about? They're like, no. I'm like, okay.
Um, and we've even had conversations where, you know, if it's a suspicion situation that we'll have 'em go test.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. Well, let's, let's talk about it. If it's a situation where you find out, like let's say an employee came and told you that they had smoked weed the night before. What is your responsibility or liability if they're to go out that day?
So that's, they, they can't go out
Amy Byers: that day. No. So that's admitted. Okay. Um, so that's just like a fail. Yep. Um, and they can resign, um, before they get tested. But if you told me like, Hey, I'm here at work and Yeah, I, I smoked weed a couple weeks ago. We would have to get you tested. That's admitted. You know?
Yeah. Admitted, um, drug use. So they would be terminated.
Josh Gregory: And if you, let's say you didn't. You still let them go out on the road? What? What? In that scenario, you know that they did, but they haven't been tested. What kind of liability do you have down the line if, let's say. A week later they got tested and, and failed for something else, but it was like this [00:16:00] separate, and they came back and said,
Amy Byers: like, I told her that I did.
And she, you know, they said it was fine.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Amy Byers: Um, your contracts would be at risk. The contract says Any knowledge of this little fine lines. Yeah. Any
Dave Byers: suspicion or anything, so, yeah.
Josh Gregory: And, and I think that's just as important to emphasize Yeah. Is like, if there's any chance that you know, or think, you know, so if it's a suspicion, can you, you can.
Basically elect for somebody to go get drug tested.
Amy Byers: Yeah. So suspicion is funny and it's different in every state. So I always say, you know, check, make sure you check with your local states and your, your labor laws and things like that. Ours says two, um, indications, so that could be smell and behavior.
Mm-hmm. It could be two different people that smell. So it could be reported by a jumper or a manager and then a senior manager goes over and says like, yep, me too. Um. Behavior. Um, you know, they admitted it to the guy next door I came over. He seems a little bit off, but it has to be two or more kind of triggers, if you will.
Um, and you can make those happen, right? I mean, you're not trying to set [00:17:00] somebody up. But if I smell it and I'm doing my due diligence by saying like, Hey, this guy smells like weed, then you can, another manager can go over and say, all right, we do. Now in those situations, you need to drive. The candidate to the drug testing facility.
because you're now telling them, I suspect that you are high, so I can't let you drive your own car. Yeah. Um, and then you can do, um, we, in our handbook we do a rapid, which is kind of that immediate. Positive, negative. Yeah. And then they'll send it out. Okay. So then if it's positive, we do a suspension until the final results come in.
Um, but then we have to find a way for that candidate to get home. Mm-hmm. Or that driver to get home. Right. Yeah. Because now you've said you're high, you're. Testing positive for drugs, and now I have to get you home because you're not allowed to perform safety sensitive functions for us. Yeah. So what does that look like?
Yeah. Right. So now our managers are driving them home or figuring out how to get their car home. Two managers, one takes the personal car, drives them to their house. Um. [00:18:00] You know, so, so that's the, you know.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. And, and is this what happens if they fail any drug test? Like not just a suspicion one? Is it the same kind of process you go through?
If they fail a normal, random drug test that's,
Amy Byers: so if they fail a drug test, it's typically, like I said, there's times where the results come two to three weeks later. Yeah. Um, so those, the ones through FedEx are not, we don't get the rapid results. Right. That's just like a test because they assume you're.
You're not high. Yeah. So a suspicion one is I'm sus you know,
Josh Gregory: I'm assuming you are, I'm assuming you are high
Amy Byers: right now. Yeah. As we're talking. So I think those are a little bit more process related. Kind of more like a, a new hire? Yeah. Or a pre-employment, like we'll get the results and then we'll figure it out along the way.
Um, but it's the safety sensitive ones where you're like, I feel like you, you smell like a duck. You look like a duck. Right. Same, same with alcohol, right? Yeah. Same thing. If someone
Dave Byers: comes to work and you smell alcohol. You have to drive 'em to the testing site.
Amy Byers: Yeah.
Josh Gregory: Is it, yeah. So it's the same type of outcome scenario if it was a drug test or if you took him [00:19:00] to get a breathalyzer mm-hmm.
Or something like that.
Amy Byers: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And we've had that, we've had, um, guys show up to work. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and you're like, you know, somebody's like, you can tell he smells like booze, like that's tough. And I'm like, I don't think it's safe. Um, so we have the conversation. Most people, when you tell 'em. What you think they're gonna admit it?
Yeah. We've had more, I think we've only had, in a suspicion case, we've only had one person actually go get the full test done and it was a rapid fail. Hmm. Um, but we've never, I, I think the majority of them outside of that one candidate, I mean, just here, even recently it happened, most of 'em are like. Yeah, get caught me.
Yeah. Um, and then you get frustrated and you get, you know, you feel let down because you had this relationship and you're like, seriously, you know, you're such a good driver. You're such a good dude. And I get it. Yeah. But this is what we do. Yeah. It's hard. So it's a hard conversation to have, especially with somebody that you really, you know, trust and care about.
And it's, but you know, Ohio says it's legal, so it's legal. Yeah, yeah. Uh, so it's a lot of education. Um, we did a sign off when the state law changed just to [00:20:00] say like, Hey, you know, you got this policy right? You know that this is not, yeah, it's legal, but we did, actually did a campaign. It's legal, but you can't work here if you do it.
Yeah, yeah. We did a campaign and said it's legal, but not for you. Yeah. So we actually did a full education, kind of put like a little bit of, of a fun twist on it so that they would not fun 'cause it's not a fun topic, but light. Light.
Josh Gregory: Right. So that
Amy Byers: they could Okay. 'cause it's a hard topic to talk to people about, um, especially when their families are home.
Doing it. You know, what am I supposed to do? Lock myself in the bedroom. I'm like, have a honest conversation with them. That this is your career. Yeah.
Josh Gregory: Or all of their friends, you know, like it could be as soon as that, uh, something like a law like that changes. Everybody wants to do it and it's great and everybody's having a good time, and you have to be the one who's not, not.
We talked, but that's how it goes. And we
Amy Byers: talked to them quite a bit. We used the example of, you know, if you're at a Super Bowl party this year mm-hmm. And it used to have beer and alcohol and it was just don't drive home. Now it's taken to a different level because it is legal in the home. Mm-hmm. Right.
So if you're at a Super Bowl party or a birthday party and everybody's, you know, just hanging around, it's legal. Not for you. No. For you. Yeah. [00:21:00] Correct. Yeah. That's
Josh Gregory: smart.
Amy Byers: Yeah.
Josh Gregory: Now, are those drivers, if you fail a test, are they like, can you hire them back after any amount of time? What's the process like there?
Dave Byers: Well, there's a process you can do. Okay. It's called the SAP. Okay. Amy, Amy knows a little more about the Yeah, so the intents of the,
Amy Byers: the, it's, it's, um, FedEx in our contract says that a person that is either tested mm-hmm. Um, or has been reported tested, so from a verification of employment, um, when they come over and it says, have you ever, you know, failed, have you ever refused any of those that would be considered a fail, um, or an infraction?
Um, any type of DUI OVI or. You know, possession mm-hmm. Would be a drug and alcohol related infraction. Okay. Um, so anything like that. So, and a failed drug test. Yeah. Right. At FedEx, whether it's suspicion or reported by us. So those are three ways that you can get kind of, uh, one score on your, on your record.
FedEx says in our contract [00:22:00] that you have to be off duty, so out of the system, disqualified for one year. So not performing a safety sensitive function for one year, and then also it has to be one year since the conviction or the report. Okay. So those two things have to happen together, and sometimes they don't.
Sometimes you get kicked out, you get an OVI, you try to fight it, and then the actual conviction is not the day that you got pulled over. It's the day that you got charged. Yeah. So the conviction date, so it's one year from the conviction date, but there is a process, and I have to say that our customer, the FedEx network.
Does allow it. Um, and a lot of, uh, trucking companies do not allow it. It's kind of zero tolerance. Uh, but FedEx um, says in the contract it can be one year, and you have to go through this SAP program, uh, which is a substance ab abuse program, basically go to, um. Um, a counselor. Mm-hmm. That's specific in the drug and alcohol, um, rehab type situation.
Um, they have to be certified to do the SAP [00:23:00] program, so they have to know all the DOT rules and everything basically go there. Um, they have a little interview and they, based on the interview, assess, you know, are you. Active and do you need treatment plan or were you a dumb kid and this was five years ago, you made a mistake, you're with your buddies.
Was it just open container versus, or possession or physical control versus like actively driving or actively, you know, hi, while you were driving, whatever that looks like. So that SAP provider will establish a plan for that candidate or for your driver and they have to go through the plan. Um, it's usually about $600 to just get the SAP program going and then sometimes it.
The, the treatment plan requires some other costs, right? Whether it's a weekend, uh, DIP program, which is that like hotel jail, where they put you in and you have to learn for a weekend. Um, or whether it's counseling or treatment or AA meetings or, you know, NA meetings or whatever that looks like once you're completed in that.
That SAP [00:24:00] provider will give you a certificate that says that we feel that you're completed and you can actually put that person back through the first Advantage program, and then you email [email protected] and get the whole process going Now. Then comes more drug testing. Hmm. So, um, we have a candidate that years and years ago, um, tested and now he is in a PS in every month.
Mm-hmm. He has to go to the terminal, report to the terminal. They give him a chain of custody, he has to go get the negative drug screen and alcohol and then come back. Oh, wow. Um, but that's once a month. But he's, you know, for him, he's like, this is the only company that really allows us to, to kind of that grace and that forgiveness.
Yeah. So he's like, I'm all in. If, if I test every month. Is that sort it takes? Yeah. Yeah. So he goes for 12 drug screens. Um, he finished his, his program and, and he's now, he's, you know, working and working towards getting outta the program, but, you know, learned his lesson and talks to people about it and the, the risks.
And he's a, he's a great guy, uh, really great employee. But without that program, we would not have been [00:25:00] able to, to hire him. So, um, it's, it's definitely a second chance.
Josh Gregory: And was that, was he from somebody, like he had had that at other, he had it, yeah.
Amy Byers: So that, so he was a Linehaul driver, so that's reported, um, to the fmc SA when you're in line haul.
So that one follows him. Right. Um, but the SAP then goes on the record, so you can see that as well. Okay. Um, it just takes a little bit longer, so there is forgiveness. Uh, the contract does say two and you're out though. Okay. So whether that's reported, again, those kind of three categories of, of uh, positive testing, uh, that's, yeah.
Contract says it's a lifetime, dq.
Josh Gregory: And, and just to be clear, kind of a learner lesson, A-D-U-I-A drug test failed Same, yep. Equivalent drug or, or alcohol related infraction. There's anything better or worse there in terms of two of, two of, yeah, in terms of reality and no. And morality potentially, but Yeah.
No, and, and to be
Amy Byers: fair, open container and even open container, you know, if you were just at a, you know, I mean, I, I think about, you know, people going to a bar and enjoying themselves and, you know, they take the bottle with 'em and. There it is. [00:26:00] Yep. Um, and it's not a big deal, but it hits you, you know, or you're a passenger in a car and you're hanging out and having all the fun with road pops.
And I wasn't drinking and the driver wasn't drinking, but we had open container and everybody got charged for for it. It's still infraction or possession. Yeah. Um, we have that quite a bit. Wasn't my car? Yeah. Okay. Yeah,
Josh Gregory: sure. Now when you ha, have you ever had a, a driver that's had one of these infractions and you decided to actually.
Push them through this SAP program. Yeah. And like you stuck with them. Do you find that they're interested in doing that all the time? Or what's that conversation and thought process look like? Um, it's pretty
Amy Byers: costly. Yeah. Um, we've gotten burned. Yeah. Um, yeah, so we, we split it with somebody once. Okay. And they were great.
Went through the program, 300 bucks, 300 bucks, and they came back and gave them the, that kind of treatment plan, if you will. And they were like, this is ridiculous. I'm not doing this. You're done, you know, and, and quit right there on the moment. Mm-hmm. So, you know, he paid the 300, we were out 300. It was, it was gonna be a good idea, but we were very [00:27:00] upfront with him and told him like, Hey, this is what this is gonna look like.
Yeah. You could have to go to meetings, you could have to talk to a counselor. It could get a little mushy and sticky. Yeah. And ugly for you. And if you're willing, but when you come out of it, you're going to have a second chance at a career. Um, unfortunately on the p and d side, it's less obviously. You know, they're less like, oh, I can just get a job anywhere.
Yeah. Um, versus Linehaul, it's their, it's their livelihood. It's on their driver's license. So they're much more, you know, amenable to go through kind of that lengthier process.
Josh Gregory: That makes sense. Yeah. 'cause with Linehaul, you know, that's, it's your life, it's your livelihood. It's F-M-C-S-A, so it doesn't matter.
It's like, if they try to do that anywhere else, it's gonna still show up. Correct. Yeah.
Amy Byers: There's no getting out of it. Um, you know, especially with the verification of employment and things like that, and all the questions ask, I mean, they're very detailed. Have they ever failed? Have they ever refused? Have they ever, you know, yeah.
Alcohol and drug. So it's one or the other. Anything. And again, like I said, that could be reported, so it could be not cited, right? [00:28:00] Nothing illegal as far as like, um, misdemeanor or MVR, but it could have just been like, yeah, the guy refused to, to take a drug test. And that's an infraction. Yeah, that's your number one.
Um, and then if something happens again. That's two and it's a lifetime. So it doesn't matter if you went through the SAP or not.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. And it after those two, there's no remediation plan or anything like that? No. It's
Amy Byers: lifetime dq.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. Yeah. So. It's, it's,
Amy Byers: there's no, I, I think at that point we kinda should have learned our lesson.
Yeah. I got, people are young though. I mean, yeah. You know, and, and you look at something on your record and we go back, you know, 10 years on some things. Um, you know, so it's,
Josh Gregory: it's tough. But at the end of the day, these are professional drivers. That's, that is like, that is what their job entails. My name is on the side of that truck.
Exactly. Slicker
Amy Byers: trucking, like what he's built and what we've built and all the families that rely on us. Mm-hmm. Require mandate, right. Demand that we make these good decisions for our business. The name on the truck. And it's easy when you're down a truck and you're like, oh, can you just finish out the week?
Right? Yeah. We'll handle it [00:29:00] later. Pull them out the way. Can we look the other? Yeah. Can we look the other way? Um, and you just can't, it's just too important. Yeah. Um. Yeah. So I think those are, that's kind of the gloom and doom side of it. Yeah. But it really is, you know, you have to put your people first and sometimes, you know, and, and I, I, we actually got rid of a, a employee.
He, he resigned before he admitted, um, so he resigned and he is like, I'm outta here. I'm not gonna test. So he technically didn't refuse to test because he quit first before, yeah. Very, you know, very creative. Um, but there were a couple drivers that were really mad at me. Um, for doing that. And I'm like, that is like, you have children.
Yeah. That is your job. I'm protecting you. You shouldn't be mad at me. You should be mad at him. Yeah. Right. Like he did this to you. You could have lost your job. We could have lost the contract. Yep. If something terrible would've happened and found out that he was using drugs. Yeah. Um, you know, actively using drugs when you're
Josh Gregory: protecting all their jobs, you're protecting your company.
You're also protecting everybody else on the road. Yes. At the end of the day, like we can't have unsafe professional drivers out there and No, that's just. That's unfortunately the way it is. And this
Amy Byers: is the job that you selected, [00:30:00]
Josh Gregory: right? Yeah. And this is the job you decided to take? Yeah. Yes.
Amy Byers: And you knew Yeah.
That it was, you know, from pre-employment to randoms. Yeah. And everything in between. Um, I think they actually, that particular candidate was like, you know, your supervisor's a narc. I'm like, no, that's what he is. He's actually paid to tell us these things.
Josh Gregory: It's part of his job description actually. Yes.
He's actually to protect everyone. Yes.
Amy Byers: We appreciate it. But it is, it's, there's a lot of, a lot of nuances and a lot of relationships, right. Personal relationships and, Hey man, I'm not gonna tell. Or Yeah. But it really is. It's a hard, it's a hard topic.
Josh Gregory: It is.
Amy Byers: Um, you know, and it, and what seems like it should be the easiest topic is, yeah.
It seems as
Josh Gregory: simple as like, oh, don't do drugs. You know, if it was that simple, that would be a resolved issue in the world. Like, you know, yeah. Don't do drugs, but, and
Amy Byers: it's, and it's really no different, you know, we can. Even though use, right? Yeah. So the difference between use and misuse, it doesn't matter with drugs.
Um, with alcohol, obviously don't come to work drunk. Yep. You know, but you can drink. Yeah. So there's always that like, well, I don't drink, I smoke weed. I'm like, well,
Dave Byers: yeah,
Amy Byers: I'm sure some In the case of
Dave Byers: drinking, you can't. [00:31:00] If you have a CDL, your, your, your tolerance is, or your Yeah. It's 0.04 versus 0.84.
Mm-hmm. A lot of, a lot of the drivers, they don't even realize that. Yeah.
Josh Gregory: I know plenty of aos that are like, I'm not gonna get my CDL because Right. I know, I know. The tolerance change. Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Byers: Yeah. And Dave, I mean, Dave and I, we have, you know, Dave. Um, obviously the
Josh Gregory: ao
Amy Byers: Yeah. I am not in a safety function, but I'm setting the example for our company and how we lead.
Um, and then both of our, our older boys, our 24-year-old twins are active drivers. Mm-hmm. So that alone, you know, when we go to an Indians game, it's Uber or car service or something, everyone's like, well, that's expensive. I'm like, oh no it's not. Yeah. Like, no, it is not. Expensive. What's super alternative.
Yeah. Yes. What's expensive is the alternative. Yeah. Um, and that whole, you know, setting example, leading by example and making those good choices. So if you're gonna drink, just be smart. If you're gonna do drugs, you gotta find another career. Yeah. Yeah. And that's just That's just the way it is right now in itself.
It may
Josh Gregory: change it sometime, but those are the rules we're in for until they
Amy Byers: can test and kind of [00:32:00] refine that process.
Josh Gregory: Yeah.
Amy Byers: Um, it just is what it is. And that's a hard conversation. Um Yeah. When it's legal.
Josh Gregory: Yeah. You know? Yeah. And that's, it's, it's hard, but if you have it on the front end that you've done your due diligence of saying mm-hmm.
This is the job.
If
you say yes, you're signing up for everything that comes with it.
Amy Byers: And I get a lot of candidates, um, of Indeed or some of the others that are like, Hey, do you guys test for marijuana? And I'm like, yes, we do. And they're like, oh, okay, thanks. And I'm like, still not interested. Or they'll say, okay, cool.
I was just asking. And I'm like, Hmm. And I'm like, okay. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, what does this look like? I'm like, are we gonna pass the test and can we pass a random after that? Yeah. Um, because passing the test, people have figured things they can pass. Pass the first one. Yeah. Yeah. Some people can figure it out.
I don't know. All the trick trades, they're the
Josh Gregory: job search, so they're like, I can wait for a few weeks. Yeah. I can wait for a few weeks.
Amy Byers: And then, you know, they get comfortable and, and things change. But we try to hold that culture as a drug free workplace and, and hold everybody up to it. Yeah. Um. You know, I don't know.
Josh Gregory: No, I mean, I, I think [00:33:00] it's, it's a, a process that in this industry, you know, whether it's FedEx or any trucking industry mm-hmm. Like this is, this is a reality you deal with every day, and it's important to understand how it works, how to protect yourself and your drivers and your company, and also. If there are, you know, pathways, both appeals and remediations to a certain extent.
But
Amy Byers: yeah,
Josh Gregory: this is a, uh, a path of an employee decides to take, they may ultimately lose their job and their permanent eligibility in the space. Yeah, that's just the reality of the situation, but I, I think it's something that. AOS drivers, everybody needs to understand about what this is. Yeah, yeah.
Amy Byers: Communication, establishing a plan for your entire company, like a policy and a position of what our stance is, I think is huge. Um, because then other drivers can hold each other accountable. Um, you know, and it's definitely a see something say something kind of environment. Yeah. Which is hard when your buddies, you know, and you are like, Hey dude, you're gonna lose your job.
But. Better you than me. Right. Like that's the difference. Yeah. Like, we can all lose our jobs or you can [00:34:00] lose your job or, yeah.
Josh Gregory: Or yeah. Or you and everyone. Or just you. Correct. So, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Byers: Correct. So those are the tough ones, um, that we deal with quite a bit. Yeah. Uh, but the SAP program's great.
We've done it. If anybody has any questions, you know, those are the ones that we would share and Yeah. And have that process, um, kind of nailed down. But we've had a couple that have been rejected second time, or, you know, not enough time from conviction. Like, all right, we gotta wait till. October. Yeah. Wait a few months.
Yeah.
Dave Byers: Had some success stories too. Yeah,
Amy Byers: yeah,
Josh Gregory: yeah. And that's great. I mean, I think at the end of the day, you know, you, you want to give people a second chance, but it, but this is ultimately a, a pretty regulated industry when it comes to those types of things, and so. It's great for the success stories and some people, it's just, that's not the story.
This
Amy Byers: one, this one and this one in the contract is pretty clear. Yeah, there's, there's very little gray.
Josh Gregory: Perfect. Well, I, I think that's it for drug testing, so I appreciate you guys walking through kind of the, the process, the pros, the cons and, and what it can look like on the back end. So thanks guys. You got it.
Thanks. [00:35:00] Yeah.
